Curse

Arduin · Nov 05, 2009, 05:44 PM // 17:44

PvE is where Shadow Form is causing problems, not in PvP. And like I said, it's in the end-game and elite areas where the use of Shadow Form is most prominent.

Martin Alvito · Nov 05, 2009, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

SF is actually an anti-game feature, in a sense (because you can always argue it's been put there to be used!), whose sole purpose is to prevent monsters to do what they're supposed to do (use skills to kill you). Some skills have particular aspects of SF (e.g. Mist Form), but SF is unique in that it allows to bypass completely the game mechanics and monsters to be able to go almost anywhere in the game (hence the "free ride").

Which is the fundamental problem with the skill. It restricts the set of skills the game can use to kill you to touch skills, monster skills and area-of-effect skills. The original design of the game didn't account for that. It assumed that any effect like SF would be finite in duration, and that you would always risk death by targeted spells and attacks.

A maintainable effect like SF with no drawbacks thus lets you burn through content at an unmatched rate. It's an easy button that isn't exactly optional. If you refuse to use it, either you're fine with H/Hing the content you play, or willing to invest the time and energy to find enough scarce players that also object to the easy button.

The WoW approach to this issue (let you play the content with the easy button but restrict rewards) is a much better compromise solution because it incentivizes players to not use the easy button.

Golgotha · Nov 05, 2009, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

It restricts the set of skills the game can use to kill you to touch skills, monster skills and area-of-effect skills.

Signets.

Throw Signet of Disenchantment on a few monsters in the UW and we're talking a whole new ball game (as there are so many of them).

doomfodder · Nov 05, 2009, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Reasons I’ve read in GWGURU Threads:
1) Ruins the economy – Only Makes Farmers Rich
2) Reduces Cooperative Balanced Team Play
3) ANET doesn’t want people doing Speed Clears
4) Excludes balanced PUG

Reason 1 - A ruined Economy? What the? It’s reasonable to infer this could take 1 of 2 forms Inflation or Deflation)

Inflation = Rich Farmers pay more for High End Items to “stash their cash” (hard limit @ $100k on each toon), since the mega wealthy HAVE TO BUY High End Items (assets) to continue to retain their holdings. So with inflation, a ruined economy means that casual players can’t afford High End Items. Doesn’t sound like ruin, it seems FAIR that someone that plays A LOT should get things that are harder for casual players to get..

Deflation = If too many people farm, then prices on high end commodities like ectos or zkeys will drop significantly because everyone is sellin? So if the prices on these commodities drop in prices below that which the farmers are willing to sell, then they will begin to horde these items sending prices back up in a cyclical fashion? Or do they simply sell them below the price that they want, so that eventually the casual players might be able to afford these commodities? That doesn’t sound like ruin either

Reason 2 – Reduces Cooperative Team Play

Hmmmm... I presume this ONLY applies to DoA & UW & FoW. DoASC requires at least 1 SF to be effective (I prefer 2 because it’s safer & arguably more efficient). Everyone on the team NEEDS to coordinate & PLAY Cooperatively. Without the tank, DoASC is simply NOT possible. SF tank ENABLES coordinated teams to play together to complete the quests in HM. The meta builds are actually REQUIRED because that’s the way GW is structured – kill everything before it kills you. For Example, when you go vanquish ALMOST ANY area with party size of 8, you pretty much need to bring at close to 16 healing skills (equivalent to 2 healers) on your team & maybe an MM to increase your mob size. The only viable/repeatable strategy employed is to overwhelm & outlast your foes – kill the mob before you run out of healing energy. HM DoA foes in particular have energy pools in the 100’s (I once used aneurism on a foe and did -531 damage so you do the math). So if SF gets nerfed such that there is neither a tank nor agro management & you want to do DoA HM, make sure U block out at least 2.5 hours WITH cons & a WELL organized team.

Reason 3 – ANET doesn’t want people doing speed clears?
As if. The recent UW changes were made to make the game more challenging to the people that do UWSC so they don’t get bored. Since, some people can’t block out 2-3 hrs at a time & only have ¾ hr of game time available, ANET wants to allow these people to UW or FoW.

Reason 4 – Excludes Balanced PUG
Agreed, but there are lots of other reasons for limited balanced PUGS being formed for High End areas in the game…

Just leave it be...

w00t! · Nov 05, 2009, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

Reasons I’ve read in GWGURU Threads:
1) Ruins the economy – Only Makes Farmers Rich
2) Reduces Cooperative Balanced Team Play
3) ANET doesn’t want people doing Speed Clears
4) Excludes balanced PUG

Reason 1 - A ruined Economy?
(snip)
Doesn’t sound like ruin, it seems FAIR that someone that plays A LOT should get things that are harder for casual players to get..

Problem is that it is unfair in that it only incents players into one particular style of play. Same as Ursan did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

Reason 2 – Reduces Cooperative Team Play
(snip)(snip)

Again, it reduces a team to one style of play. It also uses characters in ways that they were not originally envisioned by Anet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

(snip)
when you go vanquish ALMOST ANY area with party size of 8, you pretty much need to bring at close to 16 healing skills (equivalent to 2 healers) on your team & maybe an MM to increase your mob size.

Discordway?

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

Reason 3 – ANET doesn’t want people doing speed clears?
As if. The recent UW changes were made to make the game more challenging to the people that do UWSC so they don’t get bored. Since, some people can’t block out 2-3 hrs at a time & only have ¾ hr of game time available, ANET wants to allow these people to UW or FoW.

I don't buy this argument at all. Anet has not said this. In addition, there are several areas that can easily be completed in less than an hour. Why reduce what is supposed to be one the most difficult areas in the game to casual gameplay. This conflicts with your statement in #1 above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

Reason 4 – Excludes Balanced PUG
Agreed, but there are lots of other reasons for limited balanced PUGS being formed for High End areas in the game…

Just leave it be...

meh, I don't really care either way. Anyone who plays GW for any amount of time should have enough cash to do most things they'd like (tho not everything). Don't need to play that "mine is bigger than yours" game anymore. I don't Perma, but don't complain about those who do. I do feel that it would be in Anet's best interest to make certain that the game is properly balanced so that players aren't forced into a particular style/build just to be able to play.

Golgotha · Nov 05, 2009, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by w00t!

Again, it reduces a team to one style of play. It also uses characters in ways that they were not originally envisioned by Anet.

I think that is the beauty of the skill system. It shows how skillsets can drastically alter what a given profession can do.

DreamWind · Nov 05, 2009, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

I think that is the beauty of the skill system. It shows how skillsets can drastically alter what a given profession can do.

And if the skill system is inbalanced (like SF) it also drastically makes everybody play one build/class if they want to be most efficient.

The Drunkard · Nov 05, 2009, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

Deflation = If too many people farm, then prices on high end commodities like ectos or zkeys will drop significantly because everyone is sellin? So if the prices on these commodities drop in prices below that which the farmers are willing to sell, then they will begin to horde these items sending prices back up in a cyclical fashion? Or do they simply sell them below the price that they want, so that eventually the casual players might be able to afford these commodities? That doesn’t sound like ruin either

Ectos are abit different than other items permaform ruined (elemental swords, saurian scythes, torment gems). Most professions can solo UW for ectos with out permaform, so ectos won't change much if SF is removed.

Deflation due to permaform has dragged most of the prices of items down for high-end items not only because of overfarming of locations, but an abundance of ectos floating around with the SCs. As a result, the whole economy is deflated. While it doesn't seem that bad that items are cheaper, it's harder to farm for money (excluding SF and powertrading)

I really want SF to be nerfed to restore my faith in Anet. This past year has been nothing but terrible skill updates, and it doesn't seem to be changing. After trying Warhammer online I can say that if Anet doesn't stop the proverbial flipping the bird at the community like it has been, GW2 is going to be a mess of broken skills and flawed mechanics.

Golgotha · Nov 05, 2009, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Ectos are abit different than other items permaform ruined (elemental swords, saurian scythes, torment gems). Most professions can solo UW for ectos with out permaform, so ectos won't change much if SF is removed.

Deflation due to permaform has dragged most of the prices of items down for high-end items not only because of overfarming of locations, but an abundance of ectos floating around with the SCs. As a result, the whole economy is deflated. While it doesn't seem that bad that items are cheaper, it's harder to farm for money (excluding SF and powertrading)

If items are cheaper, why would you need more money?

The Drunkard · Nov 05, 2009, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

If items are cheaper, why would you need more money?

armor, titles, and minis aren't any cheaper

Golgotha · Nov 05, 2009, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

armor, titles, and minis aren't any cheaper

And none of them (other than PvE-skill tied titles) affect the gameplay in anyway, which is what everyone keeps saying is the issue, though we know it's to protect egos more than economy.

But hey, FoW armor is cheaper now.

Age · Nov 05, 2009, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

And none of them (other than PvE-skill tied titles) affect the gameplay in anyway, which is what everyone keeps saying is the issue, though we know it's to protect egos more than economy.

But hey, FoW armor is cheaper now.

It isn't for me although I wished wouldn't mind getting 3 sets and I am not GW millionaire.

I can't use the SF Sin if my life depended on it.

ix James Wai the bladed · Nov 05, 2009, 10:13 PM // 22:13

I guess, we all need to remember that this game is a 1 off Fee. Thats it! It's not monthly payments where we -the gamers - get to decide what goes on in the game, if it was a monthly fee game then guild wars would probably be the best game out, at the end of the day guys, A - net don't give a **** , they just care what they get every month -
A PAYCHECK. So I think we should just drop this subject, its brought up so many times that it just gets annoying. IF They wanted SF out , they wouldn't have bothered nerfing UWSC.

~James

Age · Nov 05, 2009, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ix James Wai the bladed

I guess, we all need to remember that this game is a 1 off Fee. Thats it! It's not monthly payments where we -the gamers - get to decide what goes on in the game, if it was a monthly fee game then guild wars would probably be the best game out, at the end of the day guys, A - net don't give a **** , they just care what they get every month -
A PAYCHECK. So I think we should just drop this subject, its brought up so many times that it just gets annoying. IF They wanted SF out , they wouldn't have bothered nerfing UWSC.

~James

It is one of many rpg games that is free.I could get a set of TT-90 from PWI in a lot quicker time than it takes to to get FoW armour.

The Ghetto Prophet · Nov 05, 2009, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

PvE is where Shadow Form is causing problems, not in PvP. And like I said, it's in the end-game and elite areas where the use of Shadow Form is most prominent.

This was precicely my point - that there is more than one thing to do in the game.

And for all you people complaining about how invincible SF is; I would just like to point out that before SF people used OBSFLESH TANKS. It's the same nonsense, just took a little longer.

Many of the arguments against SF are something along the lines of ''takes no skill, tank and spank is stupid, I want to see balanced groups''. GO PVP. Areas with mobs of 30+ horrifying monsters are not the place balanced teams will shine.

AKB48 · Nov 06, 2009, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

If i got an euro everytime ive read this on a GW forum i would be hella rich. The most worthless sentence in favor of <insert bloody broken overpowered skill/combo> ever said ....

By saying that you defined your own worth, which is next to none. The thing is there is no point of having this fuss over SF. It's like you see someone driving a Mercedes while you got a 1991 Ford, and you're like, f-this, you can't drive that car, since it is better than what I'm having now. THAT, is complete BS, Shadow Form is made to be farmed, that's it's only use besides running missions and some others. Fix SF would mean to nerf it, because you simply can't do elite area if SF ever ends, the punishment for that is too great(lose all but 50hp). People have seen them in UWSC where when a SF ends without being react fast enough, 9 out of 10 times the assassin dies.
But even if Anet is to nerf SF right here right now, there wouldn't be much of an effect. It's too little and it's too late, if you're gonna nerf it, nerf it when the speed clears were at their peak, why nerf it now when only half of people who has GW actually plays? What's the point? Make it like one of the Dev forms = nerf it to oblivion, there is no way to fix a skill that is made to be used as a farming skill.

Arduin · Nov 06, 2009, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ghetto Prophet

This was precicely my point - that there is more than one thing to do in the game.

So, when people complain about a given build being clearly OP in GvG, rolled by everyone, dominating the meta, you tell them to shut up and play HA, because there is more than one thing to do in the game?

Adding to the points pointed out by doomfodder, and in league with Fril Estelin:

5) The option of being invincible in an online game shouldn't exist.

Aside from ruining the economy and the other points, take a step back, and look at GW in it's entire form. If you want to go iddqd in Doom, go ahead, but not in a game where other people are participating in. It throws the skill>time principle all out of the window. No need for a thorough understanding of game mechanics. Just buy cons and get a few skills, and you are good to go. Just steer clear of monsters with signets or pointblank AoE, and you will do fine. No need of thinking about who will mitigate the incoming damage, who will shutdown the offensive casters, who will gank the enemy monks...

Maybe you are right Ghetto Prophet, with PvE not being the place where one should wish to encounter balanced groups. Yet I think it is saddening how this game started out as a Magic the Gathering type online game, where your progress was determined by your proficiency in adapting your own and your teams skillbar to any given situation, yet evolved into being able to warp the game mechanics to such an extent that every prior game rule became obsolete.

In this, SF is most prominent, but the same warping of game mechanics can be achieved by using consets and by the use PvE-Skills.

I'm just wondering if this process was intended by Anet. Did they want to make GW more available to the masses? Is this because there hasn't been a major content update over the past two years and people are just stuck in doing the same stuff over and over again?

Ah well, it might be too little, too late AKB48, but it doesn't excuse Anet from letting their game fall into ruin.

Although the latter is a point where most people vehemently disagree upon.